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reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-10 12:59 AM (#13440)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



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Unh... this is a dark day for us all. Having completed the Instrument model saving system, I was feeling quite pleased with myself, and proceeded to have a go at the MIDI output feature. A quick success (the first MIDI note to be outputted by reViSiT) was quickly followed by disaster: Cubase SX (1 and 2) has a bug in its VST MIDI implementation that effectively limit live notes to really small lengths. So, reViSiT can output the notes and Cubase can record them, but if you simply try to listen to them as reViSiT plays back, they are cut short every time. If you listen to what you have recorded, it all sounds perfect, but without the ability to hear the proper output from reViSiT, VST MIDI is effectively unusable. And this doesn't look like a bug Steinberg are keen to solve - it's been a "known issue" for some time.

And the story only gets worse in other applications. Logic, for example, does not support VST plug-in MIDI-out at all. Indeed, the only application I have come across that works perfectly is Plogue Bidule. Now, this can be used as a ReWire device, so you could conceivably use it with your sequencer hosts, but it gets cumbersome. The bottom line is that the VST spec says I should be able to do MIDI, but nearly no one (including Steinberg) is using the VST spec!

However, hopefully this is not the end of the MIDI world for reViSiT. I should be able to use DirectX (more precisely, DirectMusic) to supply the necessary MIDI communication for reViSiT. In some ways, this will be an advantage, since I will be liasing with the MIDI ports directly, and reViSiT will therefore be able to have significantly more than 16 MIDI channels (my system, for example, has 10 physical MIDI ports = 160 MIDI channels!). However, I'm not sure how reViSiT will communicate with VST hosts, i.e. how will one record the MIDI output of reViSiT in the sequencer. Obviously, it will be possible to use virtual MIDI drivers and loopback drivers, but again this is a little more cumbersome than I had in mind. Alternative, reViSiT might be able to masquerade as a ReWire device. It might be possible to simply add messages to existing DirectMusic input ports.

In any case, the bottom line is that MIDI output is now not so close - there is a lot of research, work and coding to be done. When I know a little more about the situation, I'll decide whether to release v0.86 without MIDI support or not. My thinking is that there are already a number of unreleased innovations, and if MIDI is going to be a little while, perhaps there should be a release to keep people happy.

Anyway, wish me luck.

All the best,
Chris


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rpc9943
Posted 2004-11-10 2:48 AM (#13441 - in reply to #13440)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


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this might sound really rude or selfish but how does it perform under tracktion?

RonC
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-10 2:56 AM (#13442 - in reply to #13441)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



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Tracktion appears to be much the same as Logic - no MIDI support at all.

Chris


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rpc9943
Posted 2004-11-10 1:33 PM (#13443 - in reply to #13442)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


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Interesting... There are many plugs such as energyXT which actually sequence midi and run right through vsti into tracktion... Is this something completely different to that?

RonC
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-10 2:35 PM (#13444 - in reply to #13443)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



Developer

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Location: England

Hmm, that was interesting. Okay, Tracktion does work... perfectly. Somehow I couldn't get it working last night... but now I can't get it not to work. Excellent.

Thanks Ron, I needed a boost to my morale! But I'm still going to have to look at other technologies: Logic and Cubase... well, okay, sod Logic... must work.

All the best,
Chris


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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-10 2:40 PM (#13445 - in reply to #13444)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



Developer

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Location: England

... and ReWire is definitely a no go for Logic. To transmit MIDI to a program using ReWire, you need version 2, and Logic 5 is only version 1.

Back to the drawing board. Hmm... DirectMusic...

All the best,
Chris


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rpc9943
Posted 2004-11-10 8:47 PM (#13446 - in reply to #13445)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


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hmmm perhaps you should log on to our chat room and we could discuss this further? Also maybe I could help test it out

RonC
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-11 7:29 PM (#13447 - in reply to #13446)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



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Cubase VST32 seems to work - though timing accuracy is not great during live playback (another Steinberg bug). Charlie Steinberg is looking into our little problem, though, so fingers crossed.

It would seem the best way to proceed, however, is to get reViSiT to liase with MIDI devices through the OS (i.e. Windows), bypassing the host. When the user wants to record reViSiT's output into the VST host, they should use a loopback driver. A couple are faily well known: Hubi's Midi Loopback and MIDI-Yoke, but in the long run, I'll be looking at writing my own for dedicated use with reViSiT. That way, all the loopback driver installation, etc, can be handled during the reViSiT setup program, and users will be able to select "reViSiT" as the VST hosts's MIDI input port. I should be able to make the connection seamless enough so that most people don't even realise there's a separate loopback driver in use. Indeed, this method should be compatible with all MIDI applications - even applications where reViSiT isn't running / is not supported! Furthermore, there will be much greater flexbility and scope for reViSiT's MIDI implementation. The other advantage is that reViSiT's MIDI features can be written before our loopback driver is developed - as Hubi's or MIDIYoke can be used for test purposes.

However, I am already exploring the development of reViSiT's loopback driver - running tests, gathering information and SDK's (and DDK's!). I'll keep everyone informed of my progress.

All the best,
Chris


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esaruoho
Posted 2004-11-12 7:22 PM (#13448 - in reply to #13447)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


New user

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Location: Finland
Reply to : chrisnash



And the story only gets worse in other applications. Logic, for example, does not support VST plug-in MIDI-out at all. Indeed, the only application I have come across that works perfectly is Plogue Bidule. Now, this can be used as a ReWire device, so you could conceivably use it with your sequencer hosts, but it gets cumbersome. The bottom line is that the VST spec says I should be able to do MIDI, but nearly no one (including Steinberg) is using the VST spec!



hello
i loaded logic and tried to comprehend.. well, a smartelectronix vstplugin such as MoCon8LFO, everytime, one moves sliders inside it, it transfers the data out to logic. both loading it as a vstinstrument and as a vstplugin worked with sending data out while moving the sliders. however, i do not currently have access to a stepsequencer-type vstplugin or a vstinstrument to see if it really does send stuff out automatically or not.
im quite sure there was such a thing created by someone from smartelectronix, however.
ohwell theres apparently a few things that try to use midiout, but cant figure out any names right now.

[19:26:41] <pliant> http://multiphonie.free.fr/acousmodules3.htm
[19:26:47] <pliant> that guy makes some wierd things that spit out midi
[19:26:59] <pliant> no.. midi out of vsti
[19:27:01] <pliant> is not in the vst spec
[19:28:17] <pliant> it's not part of the VST spec
[19:28:23] <pliant> so its not even in the SDK
[19:28:42] <pliant> most of the hosts handle it in some odd way
[19:28:50] <pliant> mostly thru CC outs.. not midi note data out


what a giant letdown this would've been too good to be true
and since it cant be done, theres no point in starting to yearn after the possibility of receiving midi into revisit, and being able to save the
edited result into a .midi file or .it or .xm or anything that could be converted to midi notes that could be used to then control vstinstruments inside logic..




---
esa juhani ruoho
http://www.lackluster.org
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-12 8:51 PM (#13449 - in reply to #13448)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



Developer

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MIDI will be a part of reViSiT, just not using the VST spec - even the though MIDI out is also a part of the VST spec. However, MIDI input is definitely supported by the VST spec - otherwise, how would one control a VSTi?

Chris


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rpc9943
Posted 2004-11-13 5:27 PM (#13450 - in reply to #13449)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


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I'm not really understanding this fully. It sounds as if vsti doesn't support a midi out? Most vsti's i use have midi out, midi triggers... What am I not understanding here?

RonC
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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-13 8:04 PM (#13451 - in reply to #13450)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



Developer

Posts: 746
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Location: England

Okay, here is the definitive answer to all reViSiT-related MIDI queries:

VST is simply  a specification for a plug-in format. The specification does have provision for MIDI output from plug-ins to the host (Esa: tell your friend pliant to look at the sendVstEventsToHost() command in the SDK). However, host developers often don't bother to implement this particular feature of the specification - they are more interested in the audio features. However, they do concede that MIDI input to the plug-in from the host is a requirement for VSTi's (obviously). If that wasn't bad enough, some notable hosts that profess to supporting MIDI output - such as some Steinberg products, including Cubsase SX and Nuendo - have a huge bug that makes them unusable in realtime use. Here's a breakdown of the level of support in different Audio apps, that I know about:

Hosts that support VST plug-in MIDI output:
Tracktion, Plogue Bidule, Steinberg Cubase VST32

Hosts that support VST plug-in MIDI output, with dibilitating bugs:
Steinberg Cubase SX, Steinberg Nuendo

Hosts that don't support VST plug-in MIDI output:
Emagic Logic, and many, many more

There are other methods of getting MIDI support in plug-ins, which involve system specific hacks, including the use of DirectX (DirectMusic) or MME and Loopback drivers. This is the route that many plug-ins have taken, and is almost certainly the route that reViSiT will take. This method has several advantages over the VST method:

(1All hosts will support it.
(2) MIDI ports will be directly addressable - no phaffing around in Cubase trying to re-route the VST midi output to your synthesizer.
(3) The number of MIDI channels addressable will depend on your system and hardware, rather than being limited to VST's menial 16 channels.

The only real disadvantages, compared to VST Midi, are:

(a) It is harder to code (but I think I have it in hand).
(b) It is not portable - whoever ports reViSiT to MacOS will have to write their own MIDI support.
(c) This method only directly supports communication with external MIDI devices and ports. To get MIDI from reViSiT to your VST host (and therefore: to other VSTi's), the user will need to install a seperate Loopback driver - however, I will integrate this step with the reViSiT setup program, so that one is installed automatically and silently.

Thus, everyone should put their fears at rest.   reViSiT WILL HAVE BOTH MIDI INPUT AND OUTPUT , and it will even be better, more flexible and more powerful than the original MIDI intent! It will, however, take a little longer (see item (a)). For this reason, v0.86 will be released shortly without MIDI support, so that you can avail of the other non-MIDI improvements and fixes, while I set to work on the MIDI code itself. Currently, I am only waiting on feedback from someone who was experiencing a crashing problem with Logic, before the release. If the problem is gone, v0.86 will be available very shortly.

I hope this answers everyone's questions - but feel free to pose more.

All the best,
Chris


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elfani
Posted 2004-11-20 2:34 AM (#13452 - in reply to #13451)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


Member

Posts: 15

Location: Sweden
Please note the following:

There is an inofficial bug fix for Cubase SX2 that takes care of the midi problem. You can find it at http://www.sonicbytes.com/era/era_userbase.htm.

The midi out issue is the host developers' problem. If you look at EnergyXT, you will find that there is no such problem there. Also, there is quite a number of hosts that have an fully acceptable VST implementation that supports midi in as well as midi out through VST. So don't worry about it . Midi out according to the VST specification is possible! Just look at EnergyXT (again with the EnergyXT crap ). It works perfectly in Cubase SX (provided that you use the fix by Sonicbytes).

When you looked at Logic, did you look at the last version released for the PC? Because Logic for PC has some real problem when it comes to certain plugins. I would suggest that you disregard Logic due to its severe problems and complete lack of support (at least if you're looking at the PC side ).

I'm glad that you haven't let this stop you, because it's such a silly problem really.

<edit>
Okay, so you won't implement VST midi out but instead use a virtual midi interface/midi loopback? In my experience that is utterly hopeless when it comes to latency and so forth. This includes ReWire. It's almost usable for syncing, but it screws up that too sometimes. For example, Skale Tracker uses a midi out which requires a loopback and that is totally useless. But, what do I know of the Skale Tracker implementation, anyway? I've tried ReWire and Midi Yoke between various applications at numerous occasions, but never has it been even close to the tight sync and reliability that VST midi can provide.
Maybe I've just had bad luck... but I doubt it .

Too bad that you won't implement true VST integration, though. It would really had made a difference since reViSiT is the only VST tracker available today besides Skale. And Skale isn't moving anywhere it seems .
</edit>

<edit2>
Besides, I see no problem with implementing both VST midi out and some kind of support for midi loopbacks. The advantage with midi loopbacks is - as you said - that you can use more than one midi out interface at a time.

There is one big problem with not using VST midi out, though (besides every other problem there is ), and that is that it would be impossible to route midi out from reViSiT directly to some other VST plug. You would need to use a midi loopback which means that every receiver of this midi out stream would have to use the same midi loopback as well. And that is definitely not the case with most VST plugins out there. No plugin I know of have support for listening to a midi interface or midi loopback or whatever. That functionality is in most cases in the VST host.
Using VST midi out you would be able to route the midi out stream directly to any midi in of any plug-in in the VST host (provided that we're talking about an intelligent VST host that has those routing capabilities... *cough* EnergyXT *cough* ). This would be impossible using a midi loopback. All you'd be able to do would be to send midi _out_ from reViSiT. Not route it anywhere, since the VST host uses the VST routing facilities for this, i.e routes between midi out/in of the plugins. Also, using VST midi out it would be perfectly possible to set up like 5 synced instances of reViSiT in parallel and have them send midi to the same VST plug-in. I don't see how that would be possible with a midi loopback. In EnergyXT you would simply open 5 instances of reViSiT and then route the VST midi out of each instance to the midi in of the plug-in you wish to control. I don't think that would be possible in Cubase though, due to it's primitive routing system, but the VST specification would certainly allow it.

Please, do correct me if I'm wrong here. But I _do_ have experienced the exact same problem in other tools, so I know how much it helps by utilitizing what the VST specification has to offer instead of using external solutions like ReWire. If only people would follow the specification.

Man, I hope that I don't come across as a cry-baby for bringing this up, but these are my experiences .
</edit2>

Good luck!

//Tomas


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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-25 12:00 AM (#13453 - in reply to #13452)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



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Hi Tomas,

Thanks for the info about the bug fix - very useful. Also, allow me to come back on some of you questions and comments:

> When you looked at Logic, did you look at the last version released for the PC? Because Logic for PC has some real
> problem when it comes to certain plugins. I would suggest that you disregard Logic due to its severe problems and
> complete lack of support (at least if you're looking at the PC side).

Let's not beat around the bush here, Logic is rubbish. One of the most buggy and poorly designed pieces of commercial software I've ever come across. It once might have held the advantage as regards feature set, but, when reliability isn't assured, what's the point? Apple are both welcome and suited to it. However, for some unknown reason, there is nonetheless a considerable Logic PC user base, so I'll be trying my very best to get reViSiT working with it. The version tested was 5.5 - the final PC version. I've also tried 5.1 and 5.2.

> Okay, so you won't implement VST midi out but instead use a virtual midi interface/midi loopback? In my experience
> that is utterly hopeless when it comes to latency and so forth.

I haven't done extensive tests yet, but I'm investigating a loopback driver called LoopBe1. Here's a quote from the website: "LoopBe1 is a native Windows 2k/XP WDM kernel mode driver, so expect the lowest possible latency. Due to its architecture, it doesn't work on Windows 95/98/ME." The architecture referred to will actually work with Windows 9x, but only when the driver is compiled under that operating system, so hopefully I will be able to support all Windows platforms. I have already bought the source code, but the developers are currently auspicious by their failure to deliver or even reply to emails. If you want to test the latency, you can get a free version from http://www.nerds.de.

> Besides, I see no problem with implementing both VST midi out and some kind of support for midi loopbacks.

Why bother with VST support when the alternative is better in every respect? Even if I did do both, the user would have to manually switch between them, and everyone would need to have the difference explained to them, which is a hit to user friendliness I do not welcome.

> There is one big problem with not using VST midi out, though (besides every other problem there is ), and that is
> that it would be impossible to route midi out from reViSiT directly to some other VST plug. You would need to use a
> midi loopback which means that every receiver of this midi out stream would have to use the same midi loopback as
> well. And that is definitely not the case with most VST plugins out there. No plugin I know of have support for listening
> to a midi interface or midi loopback or whatever. That functionality is in most cases in the VST host.

A plug-in that passes MIDI to the host uses a similar method if it uses either VST or a MIDI Loopback. In Cubase, the Loopback driver appears as another input, which can be directly routed to VST plug-in, if desired. In programs like EnergyXT and Bidule, you'll be able to add the Loopback's MIDI input as a seperate object (or machine, or whatever the terminology is) and connect that to your desired plug-in. I can understand that some people might be sharing the loopback driver among several applications (not just reViSiT), which is why I am endeavouring to produce my own driver, which will simply appear as a MIDI Input called "MIDI from reViSiT" (or similar). Furthermore, it should be possible to run up to 4 reViSiT loopback drivers in parallel.

> I don't think [MIDI loopback / plug-in to plug-in routing] would be possible in Cubase though, due to
> it's primitive routing system, but the VST specification would certainly allow it.

Trust me, it's possible. I know this works in Cubase SX: to send MIDI out from reViSiT, you will only need to output from reViSiT to the Loopback driver (which might be called "Send To Host", in reViSiT's drop down list of MIDI devices), then select "MIDI from reViSiT" as the MIDI input device to the second plug-in's track (e.g. Halion). In Cubase VST, you have to use the "MIDI Setup --> MIDI System..." settings to set-up the mapping of loopback input to your desired plug-in (though it might therefore be that only one VSTi will be controllable from reViSiT). In Logic, you can use the Environment window to link individual physical MIDI inputs (including loopback drivers) to Audio Instruments.

Hope this helps,

All the best,
Chris


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elfani
Posted 2004-11-25 1:21 PM (#13454 - in reply to #13453)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


Member

Posts: 15

Location: Sweden

Thanks for your reply!

When it comes to the midi loopback: It's true, Cubase would certainly allow routing using the loopback in the same way as using VST midi out (it's just a matter of selecting Midi input of a track). Perhaps it would work just fine, providing that the latency would be comparable with VST.

However, there are more complicated scenarios to take into consideration here.
Let's say that I'm using EnergyXT as a VSTi plugin in Cubase. In EnergyXT I have loaded a couple of plugins, including an instance of reViSiT. I compose a tune in reViSiT and send the midi from it to a midi loopback device. Now, how can the other plugins in EnergyXT listen to the midi out from reViSiT? I cannot add another midi input to EnergyXT, because no VST plugins - none that I know of, at least - can control this kind of information. They simply take a midi stream and a audio stream through VST from the host.
Of course, Cubase - which EnergyXT is loaded in - would be able to listen to the midi output from reViSiT, but that doesn't help much. And even if it would be possible for Cubase to send the midi stream back into EnergyXT again through another midi input, just think of the mess: reViSiT is inside EnergyXT, sends midi to a loopback which Cubase listens to and routes the midi to a midi track which is connected to another input to EnergyXT.

Did I mention that I'm not planning to use EnergyXT standalone ? One of its strengths lies in the fact that it's possible to run it as VST, making it a totally integrated VST host within another VST host.

There is one solution though, and that is to use Tobybear VSTNETMID, which is a VST plugin that can listen to - and send to - VST midi, networked midi and midi interfaces/loopbacks. That means that you can insert a midi stream from a loopback directly into the modular environment of EnergyXT - or other such hosts - regardless if EnergyXT is run standalone, as a VSTi or as a VST effect. However, that's not very reliable and it would probably be a performance drop to say the least .

I do understand the problem though. Since you cannot use more than one VST midi output from a VST plugin, you would be limited to 16 channels. And that's not very pretty considering the number of tracks in reViSiT. In EnergyXT this is solved by using a native plugin format simply referred to as "components". Components - for example the EnergyXT sequencer - can have as many audio and midi outputs as you want. Using midi loopbacks would probably be the best alternative if using hosts like Cubase, since Cubase does not see any difference between VST midi and midi loopbacks. Programs like EnergyXT does that, however.

I'm not so sure how this could be solved, unless there actually were a VST midi out from reViSiT. Or if there was some "routing plugin" that would listen to the loopback devices used by reViSiT and output the loopbacks as VST midi. Something like Tobybear VSTNETMIDI, but more stable, efficient and exclusive for reViSiT.

Either way, I guess this problem is pretty limited to EnergyXT or other hosts that can be loaded as VSTi:s/VST:s, since Cubase seems to handle it nicely. So it would be completely understandable if you'd let somebody else handle it and go with the loopback solution. It would be extremely nice of you, though, if you would let us damned EnergyXT/<other modular VST hosts-that-can-be-loaded-as-a-VST> users have a VST midi out so that we could use reViSiT within our favourite host within another host . Perhaps this could be optional, so that if you need a VST output, you could activate it. It could be turned off by default, so nobody would be confused - only the ones truly wanting one would activate it. Thus, no loss in usability. Of course, the VST midi would be limited to 16 channels, but seeing it how there are few alternatives (loopbacks being useless in when working with a VST host loaded as a VST plugin), I would certainly be glad for only 16 channels ;D.

<edit>
Hold up a second! I know how this can be solved! The solution lies inside EnergyXT. That means that it could be possible to load an instance of reViSiT, convert a number of loopback devices to the same number of VST midi streams within EnergyXT and then direct these streams wherever you want - using VST!

Even so, I suspect that this solution requires one very special feature to be implemented in EnergyXT (that is on the official feature request thread), and that could take a short while. So during that time, I still wish for an optional (and hidden = turned off by default) VST midi output. Of course, this is totally up to you.
</edit>

//Tomas

 


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chrisnash
Posted 2004-11-25 8:02 PM (#13455 - in reply to #13454)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...



Developer

Posts: 746
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Location: England

> reViSiT is inside EnergyXT, sends midi to a loopback which Cubase listens to and routes the midi to a midi track which is connected to another input to EnergyXT.

This is the solution I had in mind, and I don't think EnergyXT users should have much of a problem - it is only one extra step than the normal loopback process, or even the VST process, if you weren't using a modular host like EnergyXT. I think, given that your running reViSiT (a tracker, which are usually standalone) as a plug-in to EnergyXT (a modular sequencer, which are usually standalone) as a plug-in to Cubase (which is standalone), you must expect some mind-bending routing down the line somewhere!

However... due to a breakdown in communication on the LoopBe1 website, it looks like I will not be getting the loopback driver source code (their "Commercial Use License" refers to their "Bundling License", and not the "Source Code License", which actually costs ?1000+). So if I want a dedicated loopback, I will have to code it myself from the ground up. I will probably do this at some point, but given that coding from scratch takes "slightly" longer that adapting other people's code, I will resort back to using VST Midi for "To Host" communication, but the current Win32 code will remain for MIDI comms with external devices (including your third-party loopback drivers).

So, in reViSiT, there will be a drop down list, listing all the MIDI devices installed on your system as well as a "To VST Host" option, which will use VST to send MIDI messages to whatever host you might have. This latter option will only work on hosts which support VST Midi (Cubase VST, Bidule, EnergyXT?, Tracktion and Cubase SX with fix - let me know if there are any hosts with Midi support that I've missed). Others will have to source their own loopback driver to send from reViSiT to the host. LoopBe1 should work fine, and is available free of charge.

When v0.86 is ready, I will begin updating the Supported Hosts table in the FAQ to denote whether each host supports VST Host MIDI or not. Development, however, has temporarily stalled because of  "other commitments", largely involving with the movement of small green pieces of paper - I should get going again at the beginning of next week.

All the best,
Chris


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elfani
Posted 2004-11-25 8:22 PM (#13456 - in reply to #13455)
Subject: reViSiT v0.86 Delayed: Serious problems with MIDI...


Member

Posts: 15

Location: Sweden
>> reViSiT is inside EnergyXT, sends midi to a loopback which Cubase listens to and routes the midi to a midi track which is
>>connected to another input to EnergyXT.

>This is the solution I had in mind, and I don't think EnergyXT users should have much of a problem - it is only one extra step
>than the normal loopback process, or even the VST process, if you weren't using a modular host like EnergyXT. I think, given that
>your running reViSiT (a tracker, which are usually standalone) as a plug-in to EnergyXT (a modular sequencer, which are usually
>standalone) as a plug-in to Cubase (which is standalone), you must expect some mind-bending routing down the line somewhere!

Now, the question is: Does the VST specification support multiple midi inputs? Because it doesn't support multiple outputs. If it does support multiple inputs, then you would expect EnergyXT to support it. If so, that would be one solution, I guess .
And, yeah, using loopbacks you're bound to get some less pretty routing somewhere.

>However... due to a breakdown in communication on the LoopBe1 website, it looks like I will not be getting the loopback driver
>source code (their "Commercial Use License" refers to their "Bundling License", and not the "Source Code License", which
>actually costs ?1000+). So if I want a dedicated loopback, I will have to code it myself from the ground up. I will probably do
>this at some point, but given that coding from scratch takes "slightly" longer that adapting other people's code, I will resort
>back to using VST Midi for "To Host" communication, but the current Win32 code will remain for MIDI comms with external devices
including your third-party loopback drivers).

I'm sorry to hear that :/. But at least most hosts support VST midi (I know all of the ones you listed support it), so that's a pretty straightforward - albeit, limited - solution.
It'll be really interesting to see how things will look like in the next version. Remember! There's only two VSTi trackers out there today and reViSiT will be the only one with any kind of midi connectivity to the VST host. You're making history ! Regardless of which solutions you use, I'm sure it will work out in the end ! It'll just take a bit longer .

Keep up the great work !

//Tomas


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