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1.00.1 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-18 7:38 PM (#14414)
Subject: 1.00.1 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
-samplitude
ok i tried it again in samplitude and it seems that sam will NOT steal keyboard input anymore in manual mode.
also , i am okay with the idea of having revisit as an second window that is autonomous from samplitude , since samplitude itself lets me detach a big part of the working windows such as transport bar or mixer.
the first problem is that the load sample dialog hasn't playback controls in samplitude, so i have no idea what i'm loading.
then there is after loading some samples suddently the keyboard control will be disabled for revisit. i can use the mouse , but keyboard is dead. happened 3 times but i could not exactly say in wich situation.
had a total freeze twice , also after loading samples. it seemed once that the sample load dialog was open twice (?)...
then the host passtrough keys will not work in sam.
BUT ! i could make some patterns without messing around in samplitude meanwhile.

-normal testing
i can't load any of my XMs. some of them will display the notes but won't have any sample information , some of them will lead to a hardcore crash/freeze where hardresetting is the only way out. i sent you one of them.

thats it for now, will keep on testing , until later...
m.

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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-18 8:42 PM (#14415 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
okay , i finally came to a point where i stop working with revisit and wait until there is a solution.
I'm used to very fast -> resolution in FT2 so that i can edit at least 64th notes. (f.e. for fast breaks or drumrolls or so) , but the resolution in revisit has nothing to do with this.
the smallest step in revisit is a 16th, so the only way to edit 32th notes is to double the speed in the host , wich i won't.
for 64th notes in revisit at a speed of 180bpm , nuendo or whatever must run on 720 bpm wich is useless. even 360 BPM (for 32th) is senseless , since the score editor will be useless then.
please keep me informed when there is a solution or workaround , and have a good time until then
yours.
m.
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-18 10:22 PM (#14416 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
For the moment you can offset the channelrow with the SDx command, with the x being the amount of ticks, something you can set somewhere. But you'll need extra channels for that method, which may be just the element you may hate. It's very uncomfortable when you've divided all your 64 channels into drums, basses, leads, chords, fx etc. only to find out that you'd require an extra channel for the snaredrum at some point.

In any case, it'd look like this, when there are 6 ticks per step:

C 4 01 64 .00 | C 4 01 64 SD3
C 4 01 64 .00 | C 4 01 64 SD3
C 4 01 64 .00 | C 4 01 64 SD3
C 4 01 64 .00 | C 4 01 64 SD3

This gives you 8 32th notes at any normal BPM speed. With the resolution of '6', you can see that 64th notes are a problem already. For note repetitions where notes remain the same, there's also a retrigger command (Qxy iirc).

But yes: if the custom zooming takes longer to realize, a speed-multiplier per pattern should be high on the prio list.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-19 12:24 AM (#14417 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
ok , this may work , but it is restricted to triggering notes only and cant handle effect commands or stops. i will wait for something usable that i can use frequently, especially for breakcore-esque beats.
i don't know what the zoom will be but it somehow sounds like you don't see something , and when you zoom you see something that you don't see without zooming
tracking is and was for me always the only music software where i saw everything at once .....
having the speed command was very practical because you could switch between high resolution on fast parts and low resolution on slow parts. but without high resolution i can't do anything so i even would accept beeing in high resolution mode all the time and then need to scroll way more.
but i would dislike the idea of pressing some extra keys,so that on some point of the arrangement some notes appear somewhere that are normally hidden between some other notes. so i would say a speed command is the best way. but now i have to wait for that . ( spent hours to adapt my hosts to revisit yet :/)

anyway , zoom or speed or whatever , i will surely continue using revisit when i can enter notes , effects , pannings etc.. in 32th or even 64th steps.

EDIT: as an example look how insanely high the speed of mr venetian snares tracked music is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGK-EzEa45U

Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-19 12:44 AM
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-19 11:05 AM (#14418 - in reply to #14417)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
Go here: http://www.nashnet.co.uk/english/revisit/screenshots.htm and scroll down to 'Future Concepts (25/05/04)'

There's pattern zooming (concept)
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fegi
Posted 2008-12-19 12:25 PM (#14419 - in reply to #14417)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Veteran

Posts: 102
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Location: Austria
dotmarkus - 2008-12-19 1:24 AM

...but it somehow sounds like you don't see something , and when you zoom you see something that you don't see without zooming...


yes...the concept screenshots cs_tbl refered to look like it and i wouldn't like that behaviour either. a higher pattern resolution would be the better solution imo. but since the concept screenshots are very old and from a very early stage i guess chris already has something better in his mind
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-19 12:42 PM (#14420 - in reply to #14419)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
I somehow think it can work tho. A 16th resolution is the most common situation in almost all music. For typical music, 32th notes and such would occur only incidentally, I don't see it as a problem that they may not always be visible then when zoomed-out. Another option would be use graphics on a zoomed-out piece of pattern to identify it as a section which can be zoomed-in. A whole pattern resolution changer will do for most situations, except for really complex music, like having tuplets of 9th notes against tuplets of 11th notes or something scary like that.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-19 4:58 PM (#14421 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
the screenshot of the featured zoom feature is exactly what i meant. in this version i cant see an entire row of 32th notes for example to compare all other notes that are played at the same time.
in comparison to higher speed that would suck.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-19 5:02 PM (#14422 - in reply to #14420)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
CS_TBL - 2008-12-19 12:42 PM
For typical music, 32th notes and such would occur only incidentally


i use them very often!! what is typical music?
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-19 6:20 PM (#14423 - in reply to #14422)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
A largely grey area, but I'd say: what the majority of people listen to or are confronted with, structurally or incidentally. Over the years I've done zillions of tracked tunes, ranging from normal pop to film, from children-songs for theater to games, from a wide range of tunes (classic, R&B, beats, tropical, ethnic, ambient, guitar/band, new age, synthpop etc.) for a TV series to electro/trance. 99% of my stuff was doable with a 16th resolution with the incidental SDx effects or the note-retrigger (which I use rarely anyway). Perhaps an explanation may be that I typically make music that could somehow be performed by typical players, and I think a structural melody at 32th notes (let alone 64th notes) is a bit stretching it for most, glissandi, grace notes 'n stuff excluded of course, but those are more like note-effects than that they're part of the fundamental composition. Grace notes are easy enough to handle with the SDx command, and those instruments in a library where glissandi are relevant (like a harp) usually are provided with glissandi samples. For a while I've been ignoring revisit for harp glissandi btw, I've simply played them in cubase, moving my finger over my keyboard at a certain speed.

One thing I may add is that in some situations fast notes may not have to be part of the composition, but could perhaps better be part of the instrument. E.g. a sampler or synth where retriggering (either by plain repetition of notes or granular effects) is part of the synth model. To give an example, I think the many (granular) retriggers you hear in Brian Transeau's music should not be part of the composition, but of the synth. It's insane to have patterns running by at lightspeed just for one single granular effect.

but, all my 2ct. :P
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-19 6:30 PM (#14424 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
what about electronic music like drum and bass or jungle ? or microhouse ? or idm like aphex twin or squarepusher? or big beat like fatboy slim or breakbeats like crystal method?
not to mention to not so popular musik like speedcore noisecore gabber or whatever...
impossible to make beats or melodies like these with a 16th note grid.
there is no musik that are trackers not made of. i think that tracker users that work on high resolution are not a minority since most of the trackers always had it.
i even remember some early 90ies amiga compo winners that were so fast that i had no idea how they are done , and they were classical rock tunes (example: jammin in the wind)
in addition using trackers on high speed comes also from restricted hardware (amiga in particular)where there were just 4 channels and you try to stuff as much as possible into them so its as well a way of tracking. for my chip tune tracks i am lost without 32th notes.



Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-19 6:35 PM
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-19 6:41 PM (#14425 - in reply to #14424)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
But that's not really the 'typical music' Joe Public listens to, which I was referring to when stating that 16th notes are the most common resolution. Do note: I'm not trying to put down any musical style here, I'm merely stating that it's not mainstream.

Old tracking tunes may have been fast for various reasons, I think most of them were related to the quality of the samples used. I'd have to listen to that tune tho, to pin down why it uses a high res and how it is relevant these days with recent production means. Got a link?
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-19 6:56 PM (#14426 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
no. no way. you're saying that a new tracker should miss an essential tracker feature just because its not needed for top40-music and elevator background tunes?

and hey: average joe public does not listen to electronic music.


Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-19 6:58 PM
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-19 8:26 PM (#14427 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.01 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
I've never said anything about a feature not to be in revisit, did I? Only that a 16th resolution is the most common one among most mainstream music, and yes: that includes classic, film etc. as well, so a little more than just top40 and elevator music.
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chrisnash
Posted 2008-12-21 12:35 AM (#14428 - in reply to #14427)
Subject: Re: 1.00.1 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England

Hi Dotmarkus,

Re: Sample preview upon loading.
At the moment, file dialogs are provided by the host, so it's up to them what they put in. At some point, I will replace these with my own code (e.g. Sample/Instrument Libraries), but I've a number of other things to keep me busy for a while.

Re: Sample loading problems.
Hopefully, the crashing will no longer happen, as I've improved the thread safety for loading and editing samples and instruments while the song is playing back. As for losing keyboard control, I can't see what could be going wrong in the code, so let me know if you find out anything more about this problem.

Re: XM loading problems.
Thanks for the file you sent. I've established that some of the samples in your XM files are marked as 4-bit, which reViSiT doesn't support. Previously, I thought I had code that would just skip 4-bit samples and move to the next instrument, but your files break that code. Hence, I have made reViSiT abort the load as soon as it comes across the offending samples. Your pattern data should still load. Note, that I have also tested your file with ModPlug Tracker, and it will not load there either.

Re: Higher resolution / faster patterns.
As CS_TBL points out, this shortcoming is one that will be addressed by future versions of reViSiT, such as the Pattern Zoom feature. The concept image is very old (2004) and I do have much better ways in mind for this now.
   His solution with SDx is currently the best workaround - and will delay the whole entry, not just a note trigger, e.g. volume, panning and depth entries too - as well as Note Offs (===) and Note Cuts (^^^) in the pitch column. Also look at the SCx (Note Cut) command, which is a dedicated note cut effect with delay (x).
   When I have a chance, I might look at an interim solution that will allow you to select the number of rows reViSiT equates to a single host beat. Currently, this figure is fixed at 4 rows = 1 beat. It would be relatively easy to add this as a global option, and I might look into how difficult it would be to have it in Pattern Options, for each pattern.

'Hope this helps,
Chris

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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-23 12:55 PM (#14434 - in reply to #14414)
Subject: Re: 1.00.1 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
Hi
thanks for the reply and thanks for taking a look at my .xm
a interim row-per-beat global setting would be very fine for the first. to set it via pattern options would be then all that i need for speed settings.
i think i could work very well with the global thing at first.
merry christmas
m.
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-24 11:20 AM (#14435 - in reply to #14428)
Subject: Re: 1.00.1 and samplitude , further testing in nuendo.



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
and I might look into how difficult it would be to have it in Pattern Options, for each pattern.


That would be scrumptious!
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