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first time real testing , some questions
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-06 11:27 PM (#14382)
Subject: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
1) i got a german keyboard. the key left to 1 is somewhere else. is there a way to remap the keyboard?

2) when i start revisit , there are 64 channels open. i often just need 8 to 10. can i change the number of channels?
by editing channels i know from ft2 very well to use the tab button to move from one channel to another , wich was quite useful because i could press shift tab
again to go from channel 1 to the last channel (for example 16) , so i always found the fastest way to the channel i want to edit. now shift tab brings me to ch1 and not further. can this be included? also it would be nice to have just 8 channels where i do not need more than 8 , so i can go from ch8 to ch1 just by pressing tab.

3) i need scrollbars . at least to scroll trough the channels. when my window fits for nine channels and i want to edit ch32 , that means that i can switch to ch9 via mouse , but the rest i have to press tab. (this means i have to press tab 22 times to get to ch32!!!)

thanks for reading.
m.

ps: i still need samplitude implementation.... pleeeease.

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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-06 11:43 PM (#14383 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: RE: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
5 minutes later . the next feature request

i use dual screen workspaces in nuendo. so i have about nine shortcuts for different screen setups (f.e. left screen: arrangement - right screen: scores ; left screen: mixer - right screen: - vst effects) but it seems that i cannot include revisit to these workspaces because it does not react like a normal vst window , more like a second program. it would be nice to include revisit to these workspaces , so that when i switch to workspace 2 or whatever that revisit pops up on the correct screen in the correct position.

tanks.
m.

Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-06 11:52 PM
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-06 11:48 PM (#14384 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: RE: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
and the next request :D

would it be possible to make an option to pass through the space key from revisit to my sequencer , to let the sequencer start the whole arrangement while editing in revisit ?



Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-06 11:52 PM
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-07 1:15 AM (#14385 - in reply to #14384)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
1) no idea
2) no, you can use the key [end] though to move to the right end and then the lower end of the pattern, [home] to get to the left end and top of the pattern. As a matter of fact, I've often had situations where 64 channels weren't enough even.. :P
If it's up to me: no wrap-around please.
Also, reViSiT's pattern editing is based on IT2, not FT2 -thankgod for that-.
3) no one should press tab 22x times. Thanks to key-repeat, you simply hold down the tab, until you're roughly around channel 32, then you let go of the key. If you have 9 channels on your screen, then it doesn't really matter *where* channel 32 is going to end, no? left, right or somewhat central.. For even better visual navigation you can give names and colors to channels.

And the last Q: there are passthrough keys in reViSiT already which you can read out in your host, iirc something like ctrl-[Fkey] or something, never used them, so I typically forget about those. ^^

More answers below, by chrisnash :P
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chrisnash
Posted 2008-12-07 2:13 AM (#14386 - in reply to #14385)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England

Hi Dotmarkus,

Welcome to reViSiT and the forum... woah, that's quite a list of questions...

1) Actually, there should already be provisions for German keyboards, as the 'dead' key problem turned up before. You should use the ' or ` key, wherever it may be on your keyboard. On my [German] keyboard, there's one left of the main Return key and one left of the Backspace key.

2) No, the number of channels is set at 64. I sympathise with your desire to tab around faster, but I don't want users to have to drop down a gear to add a channel every time they run out of space. I like to think of the pattern as a blank A2 canvas, rather than a piece of A4 which keeps having post-it notes cellotaped to it. I'll think about the wraparound option, or perhaps something to act as a substitute - like a step in the End key that takes you to the last used channel. For the time being, you might find using Alt-Left/Right (skip channel backwards/forwards) more handy than the Tab key.

3) Scrollbars aren't a highly-valued innovation in interface design. And, in reViSiT, I generally try to keep people off the mouse, as it only serves as a distraction and interruption - there's nearly always a faster way to get around using the keyboard. However, you may find something of what you're after with the Pattern Overview (#) feature.

'4') The position of reViSiT's editor window is saved with reViSiT's Preferences (F12), but not currently tied to the host's VST control. It is very difficult to cater for each host's different way of handling windows, but I might look at an "anchor" feature that will couple the toolbar and editor window together.

'5') As CS_TBL suggests, there are some pre-defined passthrough Host keys (Shift + F2 to F12), but - in Cubase - they only work when the plugin toolbar is set to "Always On Top" (I assume Nuendo is the same).

'Hope this helps,
Chris

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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-07 10:40 AM (#14388 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
hi !
thanks a lot for these FAST answers.
i haven't been able to test these things out , but i see that the most questions are answered.
i may have not read the help file good enough (or the help file is not complete ??)
anyway before i go to the next session i just wanted to explain why i just need 8 channel patterns.

i came from ft2 , then switched to buzz a short time , and then found renoise , at a time when it was called noisetracker , then protracker. i had long chats and even meetings with the developer to request features that are essential to modern tracking. the first thing is synchronisation with a multitracker , or real audio tracks in the tracker. i never got renoise perfectly in sync with any of the programs. i read about that some people made it via midiyoke , but i know that this solution will not work with asio and even if you set the tracker to direct x out , it is so inaccurate that you can't work with it. now since there is revisit , there is no need to worry about that anymore

the second thing i learned from buzz , is that it is VERY useful to have a song sequencer that is not just one pattern WIDE. that means:
i program a drum sequence that need for example 12 channels. then i program a baseline that has only one channel and some synth patterns that need 4 channels.
now each of these got a pattern number and i can combine them as freely as i want. this is very useful if my drum sequence is very short , and i got a lead sequence that is much longer.
another example lets say a short drum sequence has pattern number 01 and a long lead sequence has pattern number 02 and another lead has 03
the buzz sequencer would look like this.
01 02
01 --
01 --
01 --
01 03
01 --
etc

no there is no need for extensive copy/pasting of whole blocks in the tracker anymore. without you would have to create for this situation at least 4 patterns for lead 02 in wich the lead melody is split up and 4 patterns for lead 03. and if you want to add in the next lead change a synth line this means creating a lot of pattern again.
ok revisit does not have this feature , BUT i can (i guess i can ! will try this out) create multiple instances of revisit and then arrange the different tracked parts in nuendo.
those instances then have just around 5 different patterns and don't need more than 16 channels i think.

this was quite a long explanation... i hope that someone did read it :D
have a nice sunday.
m.

ps: yesterday i did not manage to make multi channel out in revisit , but unless i really tried everything i assume it's user error.

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chrisnash
Posted 2008-12-07 2:15 PM (#14389 - in reply to #14388)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England
At some point, the MIDI-triggered patterns will be able to play more than one pattern at once - so you'll eventually be able to layer the patterns up as you describe. I hadn't thought about extending this to the order list, but it seems a logical progression.

In the meantime, I recommend against multiple instances of reViSiT, as this is not supported - and will likely lead to memory conflicts. There is normally a warning message to this effect, but it was temporarily removed in the last version as it seemed to be causing problems in T3. The cause of those problems were found elsewhere, so the guard will be coming back in the next release.

Chris
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 6:04 PM (#14392 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
ok I'm cool with the host passtrough keys. and somehow i managed to make the workspaces in a way that revisit will pop up when needed without a mouse. so that is not a problem anymore.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 6:15 PM (#14393 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
so i implemented play from revisit to nuendo in this way: i created a workspace in wich the revisit window is active and the toolbar is set to always on top, then i locked the workspace.
when passing a key trough from revisit to nuendo , the revisit window will go inactive and the project window will go active so you would have to click into the revisit window again to keep up tracking,
but i wrote a nuendo key macro that presses play and then switches back to the saved workspace with active revisit. so after pressing a passtrough key , revisit is still the active window.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 6:45 PM (#14394 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
two new things worth to be mentioned.
.) is it possible to make the numbers for the rows hexadecimal? i'm really used to it.
.) revisit crashed after trying to change the pattern lenght.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 6:55 PM (#14395 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
BUG: cant set pattern lenght to 32. just 31 or 33. 31 is exactly missing one row. 33 is one too much.

edit : also impossible to set it to 16 :/ .. 64 works.

Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-08 6:57 PM
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 8:26 PM (#14396 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
feature request : if the pattern window of revisit is inactive , it would be good if the first click into the window does not affect the cursor position but just activate the window.

Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-08 8:27 PM
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-08 9:01 PM (#14397 - in reply to #14396)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
is it possible to make the numbers for the rows hexadecimal? i'm really used to it.

Obviously you're an FT2 user (or any trackingtool which inherited FT2 DNA :P). reViSiT is obviously based on IT2, and it's the only tool based on IT2 at this level. There are IT2 clones around (I've seen one for Linux some years ago) but they are just that: IT2 clones, including all the classic DOS limitations regarding quantity and layout. So, if anyone wants a high-level IT2, then the choice is pretty much reViSiT. It also means that it better not becomes an FT2 clone.

Hex values remind me of 4/4 measures. Not really practical when you're working on 3/4, 7/8 and such. Besides, a future feature will be row zoom in/out, so any numerical orientation system wouldn't prolly make a lot of sense then.

Apart from these issues: while tracking may have its roots in the underground/dance/trance/electro etc., one thing *I* think tracking is good for is large-scale music like orchestral music (see the sticky song thread!) or any other large scale music, or perhaps just 'normal' music. The program should also appeal to 'normal' musicians if possible, and those aren't going to be amused with hex notation. While there is hex in the effects column, I'm sure that in the future its format may be custom as well, maybe even graphical (like having a curve).

I use the effects column not very often btw, only for key-switches and the incidental pattern-break. Sometimes some modwheeling and pitchbending, but that's really it.
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CS_TBL
Posted 2008-12-08 9:39 PM (#14398 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
Having said all that, it may not be a lifetime investment to have custom displays of numbers, be it rows or octaves.. :P It should tho then be an option, and not a replacement.
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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-08 10:26 PM (#14399 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
actually i have been using a lot of trackers. the tracker i worked on the most in the last 3 years is littlesounddj. i'm just used in hex numbers , and they are very common in trackers. and i think it's no big deal to implement , thats why i asked.furthermore, i don't see a big difference between it2 and ft2. really.
graphical visualisation of the effects columns are fine. see renoise.

Edited by dotmarkus 2008-12-08 10:29 PM
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chrisnash
Posted 2008-12-14 9:33 AM (#14406 - in reply to #14399)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England

Hi Dotmarkus,

Re: Hex.
I can see why saving a character's space might prove handy on a screen resolution of 160x144, as in your GameBoy tracker; but aside from the slight advantage in a 4/4 time signature, hex is thoroughly confusing for most users. reViSiT uses hex in a couple of the effects, but even these might be replaced in time (or made optional).

Re: Pattern Length crash.
I've improved the thread safety of both undos and pattern resizes in v1.0, so hopefully this won't happen again.

Re: Fiddly sliders.
The problem has to do with the sliders being too small - so that the resolution of the slider is finer than the screen. It's never really been an issue before, because most people simply use the keyboard (left / right cursors, or type the number in). However, I've overhauled both the Pattern Options and Instrument MIDI settings to address these issues with mouse interaction, in v1.0. Other sliders, where such fine control is less crucial, might still require you to use the keyboard for specific values.

I hope to have v1.0 out at some point later today, but given that the sun has risen twice during this coding session, I might fall asleep first...

Best, 
Chris

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dotmarkus
Posted 2008-12-16 12:32 AM (#14410 - in reply to #14382)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions


Member

Posts: 19

Location: austria
hi
thanks for the fast answer. i had a hardcore crash (swept away my whole arrangement and nuendo aswell) in revisit a few seconds ago while loading a xm file.
first i tried to load an old xm from 1999 , then somehow it did not start to play (that was strange enough) , then after loading another , revisit freezed , and so did nuendo.
i'll try to reconstruct it as soon as i slept on that tiny frustration attack.
yours
m.
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chrisnash
Posted 2008-12-16 10:10 AM (#14411 - in reply to #14410)
Subject: Re: first time real testing , some questions



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England
Hi dotmarkus,

Sorry to hear of your problems. Can you send a copy of the XM files that are causing problems to revisit [at] nashnet.co.uk?

Cheers,
Chris
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