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shuffling / groove with revisit
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gewfz
Posted 2009-06-24 10:42 AM (#14775)
Subject: shuffling / groove with revisit


Member

Posts: 11

Hi all,

I have a tricky question about putting some groove onto my tracks in revisit. Since the host has total control over the tempo of the song, it seems that the internal resolution effect doesn't affect the tempo..

On Impulse Tracker / Modplug Tracker, I used to use the Axx effect to make the groove by alternating A02 and A04 every 2 rows, for instance. This is impossible to do in revisit.

I tried the groove function in ableton, but I think it affects only the clips (midi or audio) and not the global tempo. So it doesn't work. I thought maybe a tempo option in revisit with a master/slave switch would be a solution. The user could choose whether the tempo is defined by revisit or by the host, such as external midi controllers..

Any solution you might think of will be very appreciated!

cheers
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thinktankted
Posted 2010-01-21 7:30 PM (#15024 - in reply to #14775)
Subject: RE: shuffling / groove with revisit


New user

Posts: 3

I am a new revisit User, but it sounds like you could export the MIDI data to a midi clip, and then use Abletons Groove/Warp functions on that MIDI Clip..If there is no export functionality within ReVisit (would seem odd not to have) you can arm the ableton track to record the MIDI data coming from Revisit and then Shuffle/Groove.

That way you're creating the base of your music in reViSiT, and just using Ableton's Groove and Shuffle algorithms to add feel.

BTW the Master/Slave tempo relationship you are looking for is more of a Rewire type of deal and doesn't really apply, that is, DAW software is most likely written NOT to allow a virtual instrument control the tempo.

Also, I was under the impression that Groove/Swing/Shuffle is not created by changing the tempo, but by modifying either the emphasis (velocity) of the note and simulating syncopation by quantizing the notes to not be exactly on the beat or subdivision thereof.

Of course, I am pulling a lot of this out of my (_|_) so I could be completely off base, in which case a moderator or somebody with way more experience than I will give a better answer.
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chrisnash
Posted 2010-01-29 6:18 PM (#15033 - in reply to #15024)
Subject: RE: shuffling / groove with revisit



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England
Sadly, as thinktankted observes, VST plugins don't have the ability to control host tempo, directly. It might be possible to use a MIDI loopback driver, but this is something that might need more functionality on the reViSiT side (e.g. transmitting timecode).

But, actually, the tracker "swing effect" was not originally done using tempo, but "speed" (Axx), which is a uniquely tracker way of thinking, which reViSiT doesn't use (though we have resolution, which is related). Previously, you'd set a tempo, and then have an extra factor - speed - determining the resultant rate of playback. reViSiT just bases everything off the host tempo.

For individual tracks, you can use the Note Delay (SDx) command, of course, but global "swing" is more difficult. When I used to use the A02/A03 trick, in IT2, I always found there were tracks I didn't want it to effect, so perhaps a piecemeal approach might be better in any case.

Post-processing might be possible, in the host, with realtime swing quantisation - but it will depend on the host. Without a dedicated feature, I can't think of a host that allows audio sidechaining of MIDI effects (e.g. driving a MIDI delay with a sine wave oscillator) - perhaps there's another way, in more powerful hosts. Cubase's "transformer" is quite powerful, but I'm not sure about Ableton.

There's no MIDI export in reViSiT yet, but it's one of the features on a long list of TODOs - along with Drag'n'Drop MIDI, if it's even technically possible. It's all a matter of time and priorities at the moment, but I have grand plans for reViSiT, and every intention of seeing them all through.

'Hope this helps,

Chris
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lackluster
Posted 2010-09-05 9:40 AM (#15135 - in reply to #15033)
Subject: RE: shuffling / groove with revisit


Regular

Posts: 50
2525
Location: helsinki
<p>
chrisnash - 2010-01-29 8:18 PM actually, the tracker "swing effect" was not originally done using tempo, but "speed" (Axx), which is a uniquely tracker way of thinking, which reViSiT doesn't use (though we have resolution, which is related). There's no MIDI export in reViSiT yet, but it's one of the features on a long list of TODOs - along with Drag'n'Drop MIDI, if it's even technically possible. It's all a matter of time and priorities at the moment, but I have grand plans for reViSiT, and every intention of seeing them all through. 'Hope this helps, Chris
</p><p>hi.. i'm wondering, would it be possible, with the current architecture of revisit, to use the f12 setting of "Rows per Beat"  as the "global rows per beat", and enable an effect in the pattern editor to control the "current rows per beat"?</p><p>this would allow for quite interesting midi-pattern-toggling performances, for instance using revisit as a drummachine.. which im starting to look at now. </p><p>midi export coming into revisit sounds absolutely lush! so does dragging and dropping midi - would it be a case of you being able to select something in the pattern editor and drag it to the explorer, or to a software that can receive dragged-in midi and input it into its arranger, or would it be a simple .mid save to a specific folder? </p><p>i wonder if clipboard copy/paste of sample-data is on the long lists of forthcoming features? <br /></p>
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chrisnash
Posted 2010-09-05 11:46 AM (#15137 - in reply to #15135)
Subject: RE: shuffling / groove with revisit



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England

hi.. i'm wondering, would it be possible, with the current architecture of revisit, to use the f12 setting of "Rows per Beat"  as the "global rows per beat", and enable an effect in the pattern editor to control the "current rows per beat"?



Answered elsewhere - please try to avoid cross-posting.

midi export coming into revisit sounds absolutely lush! so does dragging and dropping midi - would it be a case of you being able to select something in the pattern editor and drag it to the explorer, or to a software that can receive dragged-in midi and input it into its arranger, or would it be a simple .mid save to a specific folder?



It will depend on the technical specifics of the host(s). The goal is to have drag-and-drop between reViSiT and the host, but it might be that this is best achieve by having the thing being dragged as a MIDI file, which would mean they could be dropped into explorer, just as easily.

i wonder if clipboard copy/paste of sample-data is on the long lists of forthcoming features?


At some stage, I'll think about adding basic sample editing to the Sample List. If so, this will include clipboard operations - though I can't promise they will be OLE compatible (allowing copy-and-paste with other applications).
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CS_TBL
Posted 2010-09-05 12:13 PM (#15139 - in reply to #14775)
Subject: Re: shuffling / groove with revisit



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
An alternative question then:

I'd like to have the tempo eb and flow you'd expect from a performer. In such scores there's one main tempo while this ebbing and flowing is done by the performer and isn't part of the score itself (or to be exact: it isn't part of the given tempo). In IT2 this was fairly easy: you'd just input tempos at each row, simulating this ebbing and flowing. In a modern DAW this would have to be done in the DAW's tempo editor. To mention that this would be a daunting, mindkilling and destructive task is the understatement of the year, imagine copying patterns, having to change the tempos again..

But.. since revisit outputs all sorts of note lengths and positions, why not output according to this ebbing and flowing instead? That way the host tempo remains constant, and all you have to do is output the notes slightly before the grid, on the grid, and slightly after the current grid. As there's subrow editing, retrigger, you obviously have control of these positions. .. if you get my drift. The attached image is a bit over the top (couldn't get the code right in the few minutes I wanted to spend on it :P), but it's just to illustrate that these rows have another internal position than the host tempo (which remains constant). This should enable ebbing/flowing and, using another algo, also support shuffling.



(rev_idea.png)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments rev_idea.png (3KB - 0 downloads)
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CS_TBL
Posted 2010-09-05 12:36 PM (#15140 - in reply to #15139)
Subject: Re: shuffling / groove with revisit



Expert

Posts: 512
500
Location: Netherlands
It could be an effect even!

TF0
TD0
TB0
T90
T70
T50
T30
T10
T01
T03
T05
T07
T09
T0B
T0D
T0F

Where the T would be a global row shift command with the left nibble moving a row up with a certain amount and the right nibble moves it down.
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chrisnash
Posted 2010-09-05 1:20 PM (#15142 - in reply to #15140)
Subject: Re: shuffling / groove with revisit



Developer

Posts: 746
50010010025
Location: England
I can understand the desire to emulate timing prosody in a performance, but the changes you suggest are not easily achieved. For a start, reViSiT can only delay notes - not bring them forward in time, as this requires a knowledge of the future. Also, the positions of the subrows are just as rigid as the positions of the main rows. Currently, reViSiT syncs on rows, and can then divide a row into x pieces of equal length (where x is the resolution). You're talking about having a non-linear mapping of beat to rows, which is non-trivial.

Also, from a user interaction point of view, it would complicate things. Not only would your timing variations be invisible in the pattern (reducing the visual closeness of mapping), but one would still have to choose some kind of reference sync interval, to stop the tracker song going out of time with that of the host - i.e. sync on beat, sync on bar, etc.

Personally, I think the host's Tempo track is probably still the best way to achieve what you're asking - after all, the timing you want is for the whole piece, not just for reViSiT. Otherwise, you might look at automating a MIDI delay plugin, placed after reViSiT's MIDI output. Obviously, this is delay, not tempo (one being a derivative of the other), but it might be easier to control with the automation tracks, compared to the Tempo track.
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splattimer
Posted 2011-02-20 5:37 PM (#15253 - in reply to #14775)
Subject: RE: shuffling / groove with revisit


Member

Posts: 5

Would it be possible to have a global Note Delay option? Perhaps you could enter two values - one delays everything in odd numbered beats and the other delays everything in even numbered beats. Everything would be treated as having a delay value equal to the appropriate global value unless an actual delay was entered in the pattern editor, in which case this value would overide the global.
I don't know if this is viable but it would give you a lot of scope for experimenting with rythmns and swing and also allow you to manually overide by entering delay values for individual notes, tracks and patterns.
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